In a thread regarding a song I wrote in 1993 and recorded recently, my neighbor emil posted a lengthy reply to my concerns. In the interest of not derailing a rather old topic, I’m posting my reply as a new primary blog entry. Feel free to chime in.
A few notes before I begin, directed particularly at relatives and friends who visit:
- This is my opinion. As I mentioned previously, I would not speak so boldly if it were your obligation to believe me.
- I try not to disparage people’s beliefs. However, institutions, public officials, and dogmas or policies are not beliefs, they are analyze-able, real things which can and should be criticized.
- When Emil approached me regarding my nonbelief at a picnic last year, I replied that I’d rather not discuss it at a social gathering of that kind. If I recall correctly, I compared discussing religion at a 4th of July picnic to discussing flatulence. Most people aren’t interested and would really rather avoid such a discussion; those who are interested, and attend a meeting for the express purpose of discussing flatulence, should scrupulously avoid offense due to the discussion. So if you regard religious discussions, particularly those which discuss nonbelief in a positive light like the many we’ve had here, as verbal flatulence, you may want to skip this post and move on 🙂
- I make extensive use of inline quoting. In every case in this post today, I’m quoting a statement of Emil’s. You may want to go back and read the original thread to understand how we got to where we’re at.
Disclaimers: Done. Reply: Coming up.
First, Emil, I’ll share a common sales technique with you. It’s called “Feel Felt Found“. To summarize the approach, first you establish empathy with someone by explaining that you know how they are feeling. Second, you explain how you, or someone you know, felt the same way. Finally, you explain how you or that other person found that the concerns really weren’t that big a deal, or how they actually are a good thing.
I used this technique extensively in my work as a full-time missionary, stake missionary, and ward mission leader. It works, and is emphasized in Church training materials as the most effective method for resolving concerns.
It is used extensively in hard-sell sales presentations, along with a score of other techniques expressly designed to exploit human weaknesses. When used outside of a genuine, mutual-trust relationship, it’s manipulative, abusing well-known practices of influencing people to make decisions against their better judgment, and I dislike it.
The over-arching structure of your post fell into that pattern: you told me you understand how I feel, told me how you felt the same way, then told me that you found a better way. I appreciate you sharing intensely personal, painful experiences, but I think it’s important to recognize the technique you are using while doing so. It may be worth your time to figure out why you’re using it on me.
I don’t think you fell into this pattern intentionally. It’s drilled into members of the church (particularly on full-time missions) as a chief method of resolving many concerns. For many, it’s an unconscious response, as are the use of numerous other sales techniques in presenting the Gospel.
Somewhere in my late 20s, I started questioning things and found reason not to believe.
Common ground. I was twenty-five when I began seriously questioning my faith. I left the church at twenty-nine after around four years of on-again, off-again research; I’m thirty-two now.
I even wanted to believe that there was no God.
Here’s where the differences start. I desparately wanted to believe there was a God. In fact, I kinda’ still do. I’d love it if there were a Sky God looking out for me and answering my prayers. That would rock and be pretty darn nifty. Vengeance on my enemies, rewards for my friends, guaranteed happiness in an eternal hereafter, and all that good stuff. (Note: reassurances of “there is, just pray and find Him!” ring hollow. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and underwear, thanks. One definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over, expecting different results. I’m not interested in trying that again.)
I reasoned that if I could conclude that there is no God, then it would follow that there really was no right or wrong.
I came to the opposite conclusion. I reasoned that if there are no gods, then Man is responsible for establishing sound personal ethics by following general guidelines, rather than obeying arbitrary moral codes. I have a stake in the fate of humanity, and it behooves me to behave in a socially and personally responsible fashion.
Others come to different conclusions, though. And that’s OK by me. From where I sit, I see an evolutionary advantage to socially responsible behavior, which happens to align in many cases with religious morals. However, there are some pretty stark contrasts here and there where “commandments” look silly from an internalized ethical perspective (See my Ethics vs. Morals post for my analysis of the Ten Commandments from an ethical, non-dogmatic perspective along these lines.)
What I mainly did, was try to prove his non-existence by ignoring him, not praying to him, and just living my life how I wanted.
Ahh. I tried to prove His existence by having faith, being a good Christian and Mormon (yes, I’m one of those people who considered himself both, don’t razz me!), and turning my life over to Jesus for twelve years.
You can see how that turned out. That particular experiment was a failure. I needed a better hypothesis.
I think it’s important to recognize that it’s impossible to prove a negative. I can’t prove God doesn’t exist. I can’t prove Zeus, Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny don’t exist, either. I can, however, state that I consider the existence of any of the four to be equally likely, and have yet to see evidence to suggest any of them exist as more than human inventions.
I guess I did okay “on my own” for a while. But I think that was only because I didn’t abandon everything I had been taught about right and wrong.
Allow me to advance an alternative hypothesis. Humanity has evolved with social patterns and instruction as an important survival trait. Cultures have risen and fallen based upon how conducive their social patterns were to reproductive success (reproductive success implies a whole lot more than breeding like rabbits, btw… a strong tradition of knowledge transfer from the aged to the young requires care for the elderly, and that kind of thing). The actions of an individual which support the societal success patterns of their culture tend to lend toward individual success as well.
You did “OK” because “right and wrong” are social values. Not religious ones. IMHO, God had nothing to do with whether or not you were “OK”. He wasn’t handing you a cookie for doing the right thing. Doing the right thing, by and large, is its own reward, with numerous and notable exceptions which are exploited by those willing to exploit the system for personal gain.
I think you’ll find even some Christians agree with me that doing good doesn’t necessarily bring blessings in life. This is “magical thinking” in action: if I do X random thing, Y will happen. If I pay my tithing, I’ll get a raise. If I don’t wank, then I’ll get into the school I want to. If I keep the Sabbath Day holy, the drought will end. That kind of stuff is pure poppycock… but if you want to see a relationship there, well, the dragons in the clouds are always waiting (see later reference in this reply to finding patterns in random cloud formations).
But living life “how I wanted” did lead me into doing some things I shouldn’t have.
I submit that even if you had lived your life exclusively in the fashion prescribed by Mormonism, you’d still have done things you “shouldn’t have”. Modern-day Christianity presents an impossible standard of perfection which requires redemption by a Savior. According to this theology, there was only one dude that ever lived the perfect life. He died and came back, and is like all holy and holey and stuff, and if you believe in him, your failure to meet the impossible standard is forgiven.
To quote Paul Murphy: “Guilt. Stop being motivated by it.”
You continued with several personal anecdotes. I appreciated them, and feel I understand you a little better after reading them.
When I got back to my computer, I tried that idea and it worked! I know that answer came from God.
I dunno… the Microsoft KnowledgeBase seems like a surer bet than God from where I sit. I work with computers for a living, and you have no idea how many long nights I spent (back when I was a believer) praying that I could fix a terrible problem in time, and yet I still couldn’t fix it or I blew the deadline.
How many times have you prayed about problems and not gotten an answer? The idea that God hears and answers prayers is, to out-of-context quote my friend Justin, “treating God like a cosmic vending machine”. Insert faith and works, output blessings. I submit that, if there is a God, he gave us brains sufficient for our needs. Sure, if you’re a believer, it “came from God”… but it came from Him by way of your extraordinary brain figuring it out.
The phenomenon of ascribing things to unlikely causes is called “counting the hits and ignoring the misses”. You remember the time you were thinking of that song, and then turned on the radio and it was playing. You remember the time you were thinking of your friend or relative, and at that exact moment, they called. You forget all the times you thought of a song and it wasn’t playing on the radio, or thought of the friend or relative and they didn’t call.
It’s a human thing. We naturally hunt for patterns in the chaos, and find them. They are, however, like seeing dragons in the clouds: ephemeral, temporary, and a construct of our own imaginations.
If we seek other answers to explain these things, surely we can invent them.
I agree with this statement. However, I submit that the simplest answer is to look for natural causes, and the “other answers” we “invent” are the traditional, complicated religious ones.
If you add my examples to all the testimonies of others who’ve experienced God’s power, guidance, and love, it really leaves little doubt that he lives and knows us and desires to help us.
The plural of “anecdote” is not “evidence”. Just because an idea is popular doesn’t mean it’s correct or plausible. A billion Moslems can’t be wrong. A billion Hindus can’t be wrong. A billion Christians can’t be wrong. And yet, the theologies are (largely, with caveats) mutually exclusive! Somebody’s wrong, but they’re all very popular.
Matthew quote: “… it’s so obvious what a tremendous mind-job people — particularly youth — undergo in that sort of coercive group-think environment.” Of course, I assume this statement is made on the premise that the things taught are not true.
You assume incorrectly. You can do a mind-job using “true” principles as easily as false ones. You can have group-think about things which are ethical and virtuous as much as ones which are unethical and villainous. The principles being taught are irrelevant; it’s the method that matters. If you use unethical techniques to persuade someone to do the right thing, you’ve still abused a trust in order to achieve your goals.
There are several specific practices in the LDS church I consider coercive and inappropriate. Not possessing an asbestos suit and industrial-grade fire extinguisher, however, I prefer not to post them.
(Note: the above is a metaphor as a response to getting “flamed” by relatives. Posting specific criticisms of the LDS church is a personal no-no for me on this board due to unhappy relatives making my wife’s life miserable when I’ve done so.)
— Matthew P. Barnson – – – – Thought for the moment: Finding out what goes on in the C.I.A. is like performing acupuncture on a rock. — New York Times, Jan. 20, 1981