I feel special–I’ve got my own blog now. Also, thanks for the Yoda picture, Matthew. I didn’t like that monkey.
After pondering things Matthew said about coercion and also about my approach he said was a sales tactic and also some comments about honesty, I feel I need to say the following:
Everything I’ve said in my previous posts is true, honest, and sincere. But I’m informing everyone now that I only logged onto this web site for one reason. I’m here to talk about God, I’m here to talk about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I’m here to do battle on a spiritual plane–God and his believers against secularism and the worldy things it embraces (I include godlessness in that).
Are you up to the battle? If you (those who embrace secularism) win, you’ve lost nothing. If I (or we who trust in God) win, you’ll gain even more.
As with any civilized battle, we need rules of engagement. I propose the following.
– we take the time needed to research or develop our responses – we each take whatever time we need to recover from the blows – we can always refer back to older posts and add more information, as needed – if a post makes us angry, we contain the anger to our own home and keep successive posts respectable – no personal attacks, such as, “you are so …” or “how can you be so …” etc. – no bad language – no silly bantering (this is serious business, so if you don’t have anything useful to post, please refrain)
do you have anything to add or remove? do you accept the list as it is?
(This isn’t a personal battle i.e. person against person; it’s a battle of truth against lies. The question is what is the truth? Kind of like in a physical war, both sides fight believing they are right or fighting for the better cause. I don’t suppose we would truly be able to establish a total, complete, all-encompassing truth, but hopefully we might open up a larger view of the truth than we now have.)
———
Matthew, I want to tell you about another sign that, to me, points to God–and you and I are in the middle of it.
Sorry if I paraphrase here. You said for the past seven years you have been interested in studying religion and I assume also the question of God’s existence. During that same time I’ve been recovering from my godless time, gaining strength of faith. For me that started in the 1998-1999 time frame. It seems perhaps I was being prepared to “face” you while you were being led to seek.
You said you are better at written debate. I hope you don’t doubt my truthfulness, but so am I.
You said you used to be quite belligerant toward believers or religious discussions (something like that). So now I arrive from Texas after you’ve softened your stance toward people like me.
The first time I met you, we had a religious discussion (brief as it was) that put in my mind the urge to talk to you about these things. I couldn’t ever quite bring myself to go over to your house to discuss them. Then, surely by the hand of God, I was told about your web site. I had to check it out and now here we are.
Is it just me looking through my God-based filter? I don’t think so. Although without such a filter, one could never see God’s influence. That filter, of course, is connected with the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit.
I have felt the difference without the Spirit and with the Spirit in my life and I’d never want to go back there again (without the Spirit).
– the God I believe in In some of the posts I’ve read here, I’ve seen references to God, talking of a cosmic vending machine and a supreme warden and who knows what else. Somewhere someone has really twisted who God is.
I’d like to paint a verbal picture of the God I believe in. No one can find out all the doings of God, but this gives a basic overview of my understanding of him. My understanding of God, of course, draws from LDS teachings. I know that as I read the following later, I will probably think of things I forgot to mention, so please realize this isn’t the whole picture. I’m sure I haven’t explained everything I believe about God.
Envision God, all-powerful, and full of love and caring. He creates a multitude of spirit-children, whom he loves. He desires for them to experience the joy and wonder that he experiences. In time, a particular one of these spirits desires to take the power and glory of God for himself. This particular spirit convinces about a third of the other spirits to follow him in rebellion against God. After a war in heaven (See New Testament | Revelation 12:7 – 9), the rebellious spirits are cast down to earth–the Sons of Perdition, led by Satan.
God, our Heavenly Father, still desires for those remaining spirits to enjoy all that he enjoys. But first he has to prove them. Will they choose to follow him or, if given the chance, will they follow the deceiver, the father of lies–Satan? He places the spirits on earth (in their appointed times), in physical bodies with limitations that challenge them. Satan and his followers are still on the earth able to tempt the embodied spirits.
Heavenly Father places within our reach (we are those spirits in these bodies of flesh) enough knowledge and guidance to discover him and follow his ways. He will not force us, though. We can walk away, we can follow the master of lies if we choose. He also put within each of us the “light of Christ” or a portion of the Holy Spirit to lighten our minds to desire to seek good. But we can push that out if we so choose.
We are here to be tested and also to learn to be more like our Heavenly Father. If we pass the test, and learn to be more like him, we can, after being judged worthy, gain fellowship with God, but not only that. As children of God, we can become like him with powers, abilities, and glory like his. He is refered to as our father for a reason in the scriptures.
God loves us enough that, since he knew we would stumble and fall, with this challenged body, he prepared a way to be redeemed from those falls (i.e. not meeting his standards). He prepared to send a Savior to atone for us.
God is a being of great love, of perfect goodness and righteousness. Two aspects of his love are justice and mercy.
His justice must be perfect. Justice is a part of love in that we get what we deserve. Surely, though, we might not always like what we deserve.
That’s where mercy comes in. God, in his perfect justice, could not just excuse our wrongs without a penalty. So in his perfect mercy, he prepared a way that the penalty might be paid by another, whom we know as Jesus Christ–one who could endure it.
When I talk of following God, and doing as he asks, it’s because I honor him, I am thankful for what he has given me. It is also because I do desire the rewards in this life and the life after. It is also because I see the light (goodness) in following his ways.
I must also say, that all of you who say you are godless, I don’t think you’re as godless as you think. The things you have said in various posts lead me to believe that the light of Christ is still in you and a portion of his Spirit is still there.
On the vending machine issue (above), how many of you are fathers, I mean vending-daddies? Your kid does what he’s expected to do and he’s rewarded. If he decides to ignore what he knows you’ve asked him to do, aren’t there consequences? Would it be surprising if God teaches us in a similar manner?
I’d like to say more, but it’ll have to be later. I must sleep. Goodnight. emilt
Killing the wounded
Between a statement like this
and the ensuing definition of a very LDS God, I can only presume the Christian regulars will have more to say than the Secularists. Maybe I’ll wait until that battle is done before chiming in to take on whoever “wins.”
No silly bantering? Ouch.
Silly bantering..
I like silly bantering as much as the next guy.
I kind of agree with the rules in theory, but I invite emotional responses, cuz I sure will have them.
I think it boils down to one set of rules – be respectful (of people and what they believe), and keep it family oriented. Respect the community we have here.
This is sort of a coffeetable discussion place.. So if people want to be sarcastic or just throw in a funny comment (as we would sitting around a coffee table), then thats fine..
I basically think I’m saying that as a rule, the rules have worked so far as they are and need no changing.
Agreed
This is a pretty established group with VERY good chemistry despite wide differences in ideologies, political positions, geography, and weight 🙂
I think we all agree that we’re doing just fine so long as nothing upsets that balance.
Please take this for what it is and nothing more. If the rules do need changing or defining, we rely on Matt, as the site owner/operator to do that, not the new guy.
I don’t think many people here have trouble with smart-alec retorts, calls for pie, or even hyper-emotional responses. What we don’t seem to tolerate is an unwillingness to examine each others’ points-of-view.
In other words, I am perfectly happy to entertain your “God as a vending-dad” analogy so long as you are prepared for me (and others) to examine each point of the analogy. I am simply too skeptical to accept the warm, fuzzy feeling as enough examination of it.
BTW, Emil. Welcome to the board. I hope you really do feel welcome to express yourself here. Keep in mind, others are welcome to the same courtesy.
Hmm
Emilt,
I am so glad you have found happiness in God, especially after being lost for so long.
However, you want to have a battle to decide the truth about God? From your post, it seems to me that you more want to convert me to your way of thinking.
In a nutshell, no thank you. I have searched my heart and in it I have found a childlike wish for a God, but no reason to believe he really exists. I put my hands in the pursuit of Science. Our understanding of Science is immature, for we are not wise enough to have discovered all the answers it can provide, but in it I find something I CAN believe in.
The key for those who believe in God is to realize that Science can teach us the difference between wrong and right just as God can. Science does not equal wildness.
My $.02 Weed
Battling for God
Emil,
I’m debating whether to write a lengthy response, or just do some silly bantering. Bantering is a big part of the site, man. As far as flaming people or bad language, family-friendliness has always been a requirement here.
I’m really quite the petty dictator here, and if someone egregiously and repeatedly violates the coffee-house atmosphere, they’ll get a polite note from me, and eventually a ban if they persist. It’s my sandbox, you know 🙂 But I welcome you playing here, though I’m pretty certain some of the other kids will knock down our castles and bury our Tonka Toys fromm time to time. I know that of the 20% of regular visitors who post, about 50% of them just shake their heads and sigh when they read these religion threads 🙂
(Wow, three metaphors in one paragraph! I’m on a roll!)
I thought the phrase “do battle on a spiritual plane” was kind of interesting. On one level, it brings to mind images of a ghostly jet. Kind of like “Con Air”. I’ll play Nicholas Cage, and you can be John Cusack 🙂 But on another level, since I don’t acknowledge the “spiritual” as being anything other than the “natural”, that’s gonna be one lonely fight, dude.
Or maybe you see us as two soldiers in the same war against the evil of falsehood. Maybe we’re having heartfelt debates about stuff over cups of hot cocoa on Christmas eve, complaining about the rations and the cold.
I think I said something along the lines of not being very smart or quick at debate in real life. Although this would mean I’m “better” at written discourse, don’t take it as any sign that I consider myself good at the job. If you’re looking for an avatar of injustice, a secular Goliath to your David, you’ve found the wrong guy. I’m the overweight, irritable recruit for the Philistines who doesn’t really want to be at the battle at all, but would rather be at home watching Oprah and scraping by.
Remember, Emil, I’ve been to the LDS temple. I’ve taught the missionary discussions. The God you describe is the cozy bedtime story I grew up with and spent a very long time teaching other people about.
This statement is you seeing things through your particular filter, for sure. If I’d been raised Taoist, would you say the same thing? What about Hindu?
The attributes of trying to do good, trying to ease burdens, trying to help our fellow man and being willing to sacrifice ourselves to save another are not exclusively Christian virtues. You’ll find them extolled in, as far as I know, every culture on the planet. They are human virtues. This may just be arguing semantics, but this “light of Christ” you refer to is, IMHO, a misnomer. It’s the spark of humanity. Self-sacrifice and care for the welfare of others is a survival trait which has led directly to our reproductive success, in my humble opinion.
I am not the dispenser of justice for my children. Wherever possible, they are left to suffer the natural consequences of their actions. If natural consequences are not possible, then I will impose a penalty appropriate to the crime. In the absence of my “justice”, for some actions there would be little, if any, short-term consequences.
I think this is just anthropomorphizing. In doing so, you are creating a God in man’s image, which, I think, is what mainstream religion has done.
—
Matthew P. Barnson
I hope no one considers
I hope no one considers anything I’ve said as shoving my beliefs on anyone.
Anyway, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
emilt
No worries..
We all faux pas when we enter a new group.. and this one has a lot of history.. We’re a forgiving bunch here.
Visit the Official Justin Timpane Website Music, Acting, and More! http://www.timpane.com
I’ll give you one thing…
You are a brave one, Emil.
I respect Matt’s desires to keep things pretty light around here and tend to “pull punches” in religious discussions to avoid offending anyone.
But if you really want someone to test your faith against, I’d be willing to be your secular sounding board. However, I don’t think that barnson.org would be the right place – unless Matt set up some private forum just for religious discussion.
You see, I believe that Truth Withstands Scrutiny. If any of my beliefs are in error, I want to be shown what they are so I can correct them. If I’m wrong, I want to know it.
Consequently, I have no fear of debate and consider none of my ideas to be off-limits or sacred. My only alliegance is to the truth – as I can best comprehend it.
an appropriate forum
I am writing this from my phone on the way to visit family, so please forgive the brevity of my response.
Ther are numerous resources which can fill the need: 1. Exmormon-atheists@yahoogroups.com. Go to groups.yahoo.com to sign up. The group expressly welcomes apologia for the faith, but you’ll find that they pull no punches. I am a contributor to this list, and although Emil would almost certainly not find a “friendly” audience there, he’d find one willing to address these and all kinds of similar issues. 2. http://www.fairlds.org is an apologist site. They are very tolerant of dissent, as long as it doesn’t cross certain lines specified in their user agreement. 3. My site has both a “private message” capability, and “contact”. The “contact” screen allows you to initiate an email conversation with another member.
If you guys know of other sites which are receptive to apologia, and less of a “coffee shop site” than barnson.org is, please feel free to append.
—
Matthew P. Barnson