I wrote an exceptionally long response to yet another rhetoric-filled email today, and didn’t want that effort going to waste. So I’m archiving it here. Warning: religious topic follows!
As this is mostly an archival topic, I did not post it to the front page, but just kept it in my own blog. Those who use the “recent posts” link will see it; those who don’t, probably won’t.
Here’s the original email to which I’m responding:
THE LAW IS THE LAW !
This is one of the better e-mails I have received in a long time! I hope this makes its way around the USA several times over!!!!! So Be It!
THE LAW IS THE LAW
So if the US government determines that it is against the law for the words “under God” to be on our money, then, so be it.
And if that same government decides that the “Ten Commandments” are not to be used in or on a government installation, then, so be it.
And since they already have prohibited any prayer in the schools, on which they deem their authority, then so be it.
I say, “so be it,” because I would like to be a law abiding US citizen.
I say, “so be it,” because I would like to think that smarter people than I are in positions to make good decisions.
I would like to think that those people have the American Publics’ best interests at heart.
BUT, YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE I’D LIKE?
Since we can’t pray to God, can’t Trust in God and cannot Post His Commandments in Government buildings,
I don’t believe the Government and it’s employees should participate in the Easter and Christmas celebrations which honor the God that our government is eliminating from many facets of American life.
I’d like my mail delivered on Christmas, Good Friday, Thanksgiving & Easter. After all, it’s just another day.
I’d like the US Supreme Court to be in session on Christmas, Good Friday, Thanksgiving & Easter as well as Sundays. After all, it’s just another day.
I’d like the Senate and the House of Representatives to not have to worry about getting home for the “Christmas Break.” After all it’s just another day.
I’m thinking that a lot of my taxpayer dollars could be saved, if all government offices & services would work on Christmas, Good Friday & Easter.
It shouldn’t cost any overtime since those would be just like any other day of the week to a government that is trying to be “politically correct.”
In fact….
I think that our government should work on Sundays (initially set aside for worshipping God…) because, after all, our government says that it should be just another day….
What do you all think????
If this idea gets to enough people, maybe our elected officials will stop giving in to the minority opinions and begin, once again, to represent the ‘m ajority’ of ALL of the American people.
SO BE IT………..
Please Dear Lord, Give us the help needed to keep you in our country!
‘Amen’ and ‘Amen’
And here’s my response.
On 1/17/06, SoAndSo
Actually, a lot of it is a lie. Please pardon the length of my response. Yours was just the most recent of many similar emails I’ve received lately, and I’m tired of hearing the same lame half-truths recited as gospel.
> So if the US government determines that it is against the law for the > words “under God” to be on our money, then, so be it.
Actually, the phrase on U.S. currency is “In God We Trust”. This will not be the first of many egregious violations of logic and wisdom in this email.
> And if that same government decides that the “Ten Commandments” are > not to be used in or on a government installation, then, so be it.
The issue is not whether the Ten Commandments can be displayed on government property. It is whether we allow our government to do so and not offer equal space to other religious groups. Most proponents of displays of the Ten Commandments on government property take a dim view of Wiccan credos being given equal space.
“The Government”, by the way, is *us*. It’s no an enemy to be fought. It’s a process to be participated in, and shaped through votes, legislation, enforcement, and arbitration. You are a vital part of it, as I am, and as every US citizen is. Every natural-born citizen can hold political offices and vote their beliefs.
> And since they already have prohibited any prayer in the schools, on > which they deem their authority, then so be it.
Prayer has never been prohibited in schools. Those who say it has are lying, pure and simple. The practice of coercing students to pray (that is, *forcing them*) has been successfully challenged in courts, and school districts have varying policies based upon these challenges.
> I say, “so be it,” because I would like to be a law abiding US citizen.
To “abide” the law sometimes requires violating it when it is unjust. If you truly believe your religion, you should be willing to live it despite laws prohibiting the full exercise thereof, and work to change those laws.
> I say, “so be it,” because I would like to think that smarter people > than I are in positions to make good decisions.
The people in government are no smarter than the average American. If we’d “like to think” that smart people run things, we’re deluding ourselves.
> I would like to think that those people have the American Publics’ > best interests at heart.
If you think politicians have your best interest at heart, you are cockeyed. They never have, and never will. They have their *own* interests at heart. The fact that they represent you only occurs because they rely on you for re-election, and therefore must curry favor with you by doing what you want. What kind of banal propaganda is this?
> BUT, YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE I’D LIKE?
I’m sure this forwarded email will tell me.
> Since we can’t pray to God, can’t Trust in God and cannot Post His > Commandments in Government buildings,
Wrong, wrong, wrong. When an argument is built upon several lies, how can you trust the conclusions?
> I don’t believe the Government and it’s employees should participate > in the Easter and Christmas celebrations which honor the God that our > government is eliminating from many facets of American life.
If anything, we are seeing in government a reflection of the increasing secularization of American society. In other words, the government is US, and our makeup is becoming more diverse and pluralistic.
Additionally, The holidays you mention have roots far older than Christianity, and are not necessarily religious celebrations.
> I’d like my mail delivered on Christmas, Good Friday, Thanksgiving & > Easter. After all, it’s just another day.
Thanksgiving is, at its heart, a fall harvest festival. These have been traditional holidays throughout much of Europe and North America for centuries. Modern celebration in the US occurred in 1777, when George Washington declared its celebration on a particular day to note the defeat of the British at Saratoga.
It was Abraham Lincoln who gave the harvest festival religious overtones in 1863, when he set the modern date for Thanksgiving.
> I’d like the US Supreme Court to be in session on Christmas, Good > Friday, Thanksgiving & Easter as well as Sundays. After all, it’s just > another day.
The Supreme Court is overwhelmingly Christian, as is the US House of Representatives and the Senate. What point would there be in holding session?
> I’d like the Senate and the House of Representatives to not have to > worry about getting home for the “Christmas Break.” After all it’s > just another day.
See above religious preferences. You have precisely 4 atheists in all of Congress. Various Winter Solstice celebrations have a long history, like other holidays, predating Christianity by a millenia.
(Note to self: my statistic regarding 4 people seems to be in error. The actual number of “out of the closet” atheists in Congress appears to be zero.)
> I’m thinking that a lot of my taxpayer dollars could be saved, if all > government offices & services would work on Christmas, Good Friday & > Easter.
How would it save money if people are working and being paid?
> It shouldn’t cost any overtime since those would be just like any > other day of the week to a government that is trying to be > “politically correct.”
The religious makeup of the USA according to the 2002 census is roughly: Christian: 78% Muslim: 1% Jewish: 1% Nonbelievers: 14% Other: 6%
In what way would scheduling holidays for days which do not coincide with the vast majority of the nation work to our benefit?
And when did attempting to be compassionate and avoid offensive language become “politically correct”? A better word is “gracious”.
> In fact…. > > I think that our government should work on Sundays (initially set > aside for worshipping God…) because, after all, our government says > that it should be just another day….
Well, Sunday is not now and never has been the Sabbath. From sunset on Friday night through sunset on Saturday night is. What better day would on propose? The current Saturday/Sunday schedule accomodates the majority of believers, and numerous studies show that work-weeks without at least one day off actually result in *reduced* productivity.
> What do you all think???? > > If this idea gets to enough people, maybe our elected officials will > stop giving in to the minority opinions and begin, once again, to > represent the ‘majority’ of ALL of the American people.
It’s not a matter of “giving in”. The USA was established as a secular democracy, with specific prohibitions against making laws respecting an establishment of religion. This was because the Founding Fathers, representing a cross-section of religious belief, realized what a divisive issue religion is in politics, and set boundaries to protect your religion from governmental interference.
A policy of only honoring the wishes of the majority, and ignoring those of the minority, is called “tyranny of the majority”. The Bill of Rights and the American electoral process are both structured to protect the rights of the minority while honoring the will of the majority.
I submit that most US Christians would be opposed to mandatory prayer on rugs, facing Mecca five times a day in classes. I submit that most US Jews would be opposed to mandatory daily mass in classrooms. I submit that most US Mormons would object to mandatory placement of statues of Vishnu in each classroom, accompanied by daily recitation of Vishnu’s thousand names by each child.
Our current policy of neutrality toward religions is wholesome, good, and the only sane policy to avoid tyrannical religious despotism, the likes of which we commonly see in the Middle East.
> SO BE IT……….. > Please Dear Lord, Give us the help needed to keep you in our country! > ‘Amen’ and ‘Amen’ > These are definitely things I never thought about but from now on, I > will be sure to questions those, in government, who support these > changes. > At the top, it says “I hope this makes its way around the USA several > times over!!!!!” > Let’s see that it does. Keep it in your mailbox and resend it whenever > someone new comes along
Spam is bad. Forwarded emails are, on the whole, even worse. Particularly when they are as filled with half-truths and outright deception and demagoguery as this one is.
— Matthew P. Barnson – – – – Thought for the moment: “Sometimes insanity is the only alternative” — button at a Science Fiction convention.
Matt, I hate to disagree with you..
I was having this deiscussion with my wife last night when I said that I am so disgusted with the republican party (of which I am a member) that I am ready to switch. The only reason I can’t in good conscience do that is because I am really personally bothered by the push to ocmpletely secularize America.
I agree with pluralism.. but lets face it, you posted the stats. 78% are Christian. This is still a country made up of mostly Christians.. by far. So what is it I want?
I want to be able to say Merry Christmas to whoever I want ( and I want it to not be illegalized in schools). I want to have schools be able to sing Silent Night and other traditionally Christian songs – they make up the best known of western classical music (and by the way, I’m all for making sure Muslim, Jewish, and even Wiccan beliefs be represented.. theres some beautiful music in other traditions, but if the majority is Christian.. like 78% of it, then you know what, thats fine).
I want the Ten Commandments to remain where they are, since they are agreed upon by 79% of the population – it is just a presentation of one of the standards upon which our law was designed.
Think of it this way, it would be ridiculous to remove entirely the teaching of evolution in classrooms because 14% or even 22% were clamoring for it. But guess what.. I’d wager that just about that many people really have issues with evolution because they see it as unChristian. In the same way, to remove the reference to the Ten Commandments from the law is to deny history.
“But Separation between Church and State” you say.. C’MON.. you can pull out nitpicking quotes all day, but look me in the (digital) eye and tell me that the framers of the Constitution would agree with the concept that all references to religion of any kind should be removed from all government anything. You know they wouldn’t. You know they would look at “Merry Christmas” being removed from school literature based on their Constitution and they would freak out.
Look, I am sympathetic to the plight of non-Christians who have had Christianity lobbed hardball style at them, and I think that no one should be forced to pray if they don’t want.
I agree about neutrality toward religion, but “Merry Christmas”, a ten Commandments display, and Nativity scenes in Public places are hardly a tyranny of the Majority.
Oh, and Most forwarded email sucks..
Visit the Official Justin Timpane Website Music, Acting, and More! http://www.timpane.com
The Push
I’m of the opinion that there is no such “push”; it is a perception fueled by right-wing propagandists (particularly on the radio). Everybody’s free to disagree with me. Like I’ve said before, “I would not speak so boldly if it were your responsibility to believe me.”
No argument there. As long as students of other religions (or non-religions) are free to express their religious sentiments in non-disruptive ways, it’s all good. And the whole “You can’t say Merry Christmas” thing is a red herring created lock, stock, and barrel by Bill O’Reilly. Further sensationalized by the mainstream media. See the Wikipedia article, The War On Christmas, for more details about this fable. I think the article gets it wrong on some points, but is a decent overview of the background of this remarkably long-lived and erroneous media campaign.
I disagree. Rather than go into details, here’s one of many articles debunking this revisionist history. That argument has also been shown to be meritless in court (see recent judgments on the Alabama Supreme Court case). It’s a special pleading, and doesn’t wash.
One of the few cases in which a court decided favorably on this was a modest display in Lexington, KY, which had existed for years as presentation of the Ten Commandments among other historical documents, identical in font, pitch, and width. Also it’s been decided to retain certain monuments when they are not granted special placement excluding other monuments, and other places where it can be proven the placement lacked religious intent.
Intent apparently matters to the courts as much as actions, as the recent Dover, NJ case illustrates.
Of course not. It’s a false dichotomy that either we must embrace a particular religion in classrooms, or remove all references to religion entirely. There is a useful middle ground which respects “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”.
What’s interesting to me is that, in reading an overview of the ongoing saga here, is that much of the brouhaha has actually been a result of requests by the leader of “God Hates Fags” to place a memorial in tandem with a Decalogue display which reads:
Wow, just writing that made me physically nauseated.
As always, I think we’re mostly agreeing, but using strong language.
— Matthew P. Barnson – – – – Thought for the moment: To err is human, but when the eraser wears out before the pencil, you’re overdoing it a little.
Yup.
I can understand Justin’s anxiety on these points, but I have to back up Matt’s take. He hit all the major points I would’ve, mindreader style, so I won’t belabor it further.
… well, yeah I will. I think there’s a big difference between a forced secularization of society (which I don’t think is happening and if it were, it would be bad) vs. having a secular government (in the sense of a government that will be objective and fair and consider that there are multiple viewpoints and religions out there.)
Just checking out today’s headlines will point out how scary things can get when people get elected based mainly on a religious platform.