I ran across a nice explanation in the LA Times Online of the ten most common myths and ten truths about atheism. It’s a well-written little piece to summarize some of the major issues surrounding nonbelief. Considering that at least 12%-15% of the nation self-identifies as having no religious belief (self included), it may be a worthwhile article to reference when dealing with these same assumptions.
I was drawn to it because I have had every single one of these myths leveled at me as accusations by family members. I am grateful that, at least in my case, none did so publicly.
Published December 24, 2006.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-harris24dec24,0,5826036,full.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail
The inherent problem with atheism
The inherent problem with atheism is that the practitioners, on average, do not have a problem with other people practicing religion. We’re of a “live and let live” mentality, as long as others are the same.
While most Christian religions are of the idea that we atheists need to be converted. So we don’t mind them doing what they do, but they mind us doing what we do.
Note that all standard Justin/Rowan caveats apply…I’m saying the doctrinal religions states this, not all practitioners of said religions.
My $.02 Weed
Jesus Saves
There’s still time for you to repent, Weed. Come back to the fold. We’ll be waiting for you.
— Ben
Most..
Appreciate the disclaimer.. however, the fact is that Christian theology does not state that you need to be converted. It is totally a “live and let live” doctrine.
It does say that you need to believe and confess to be with God. It does also say to share the news about that. Beyond that, there’s not much that you are commanded to do.
Christians have no problem with you practising atheism, per standard Christian doctrine – except that we believe that you would benefit by changing that.
Atheists are the same. You see money and time and effort and teaching, and sacrifice going to the church. You see people struggling toward what you believe is a lie. So you tell us what you believe. You refer to a “mythological god” and to “the man in the sky” – and are quick to spread the news that atheism is superior because you don’t tell us what to believe.
But you do.. you tell us not to believe that you have to believe in god. You call that unfair and biased. And because there is no central doctrine, you say “well thats just some” – when I find most atheists to be much more hostile toward religion than I do religiosos to be hostile toward atheists.
Visit the Official Justin Timpane Website Music, Acting, and More! http://www.timpane.com
Ahem
Justin, while you are certainly a more highly evolved member of the species, there are many Christians who interpret the “go out and spread my word” stuff from the Gospels to mean that they have a religious imperative to go out and convert the unbelievers.
Sure, I know plenty of mainline Protestants, liberal Catholics, and otherwise sensible Christians who believe that their faith is their own business and not to be foisted on others. But you must admit that there are plenty (including the 40-or-so percent of Americans who consider themselves “fundamentalists”) who do not practice a “live and let live” approach.
That said, if atheists seem hostile, it is only a byproduct of being a small minority in what is an overwhelmingly Christian country. Religion pervades every ounce of our society, from “In God We Trust” on the dollar bill to the Christmas carols on the radio to the ubiquitous churches that appear every two blocks or so. It is difficult to be such a minority in a country that is historically unfriendly towards anyone who is different.
There was a story on NPR recently about the overuse of the cliche “there are no atheists in foxholes” in mainstream media stories about the Iraq War, and the outrage this causes atheists, because of the intimation that their conviction is so weak that they will begin praying to God the instant they find themselves in danger. It is an insult which is so pervasive that most people (including the NPR reporter quoted in the story) don’t even realize they’re being insulting.
In my experience, most atheists simply want to be left alone. They don’t want Christians to reject their God, and most of them (Richard Dawkins notwithstanding) don’t go around telling theists how stupid they are for buying into all this mythological hooey.
— Ben
Atheists in foxholes…
Father William Thomas Cummings was the first who delivered this canard during a field sermon in 1942. Sadly, he died two years later at the hands of allies aboard an unmarked Japanese ship transporting prisoners from the Phillipines to Japan. An American submarine sunk the ship.
If one doesn’t understand why the Foxholes statement is patently offensive, consider the following ‘joke’. If you get why a Mexican would be upset with it, apply the same test: “Why don’t the Mexicans win gold in the Olympics?” “Because any who can run, jump, or swim already left.”
Mean? Absolutely. And wrong.
It’s unfortunate Dawkins’ voice is so strident in opposition to religion. Prior to the September 11, 2001 attacks, he was comfortable with leaving religion alone and focusing on science. He wrote an essay describing his change of view: Religion’s Misguided Missiles and a follow-up in an attempt to explain his reversal: Time to Stand Up
I’m in the middle of reading his magnum opus, “The Ancestor’s Tale”. It is fascinating, thorough, and personable. Too bad it’s over 600 single-spaced pages in a tiny font!
—
Matthew P. Barnson
An old argument..
There’s a difference between sharing and forcing beliefs. There is no forcing going on among most Christians. Christmas music is far less prevalent than secular music.
American society is secular, from TV to movies, to music, to everyday life. We aren’t making anybody do anything. Sure, we hold a belief that we should share with others.. and yes, we do share from time to time. And yes, like every belief from politics to morality, from who makes the best pizza to video game violence.. there are @**holes who will take the argument too far.
But, lets be clear.. who don’t we “let live”? We’re the teased kid, from Jon Stewart to the Simpsons, to South Park, to SNL – humor at our expense. With mainstream personalities giving God the wink, wink, nudge, nudge.. a la Santa Claus.. ALL the time. There are further slights, from the ACLU to the attacks on this board.. calling the foundation of our beliefs a “fictional man in the sky”, “myth”, and asserting contrary ideas as “fact”.
Yeah.. we make up the majority.. and yes, there may be things that make atheists uncomfortable. But our society has just as many that make Believers uncomfortable. So, the hostility I get (and I’ve had people point fingers at me telling me Churhes are out to steal money, that no reasonable person would believe in a God, and that theism is responsible for all the evils of the world – heck, there was a post on thsi board not long ago faulting believers for crediting God with saving plane crash survivors).
As to the Foxholes comment. I had never heard that phrase until I read your post. And I watch a lot of news. I can’t really speak to it, except that it is not as prevalent as you might think.
Finally.. I find this board to be for the most part, respectful.. if not a little hostile toward religion. But thats a reason I come back.. it sharpens my brain to question my beliefs.. and this board makes me do that. I’ve cracked the bible and done more research for posts here than I tend to on my own. So, while my response may be spirited, please do not mistake it for vehemence. Your comments do not in any way offend.. but they do bear scrutiny.
Visit the Official Justin Timpane Website Music, Acting, and More! http://www.timpane.com
hee
Justin, you are so much fun to debate with! OK, let’s see…
First off, I’ll admit that modern American society is a vast improvement (in terms of religious freedom) over a lot of societies of the past. This is no Spanish Inquisition (“nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!”) – no one is being forced to convert or to swear fealty to God or anything like that.
However, in some respects, “sharing” one’s belief is itself a type of force. It implies that the person with whom the beliefs are being shared is somehow looking for a change, or at least open to the possibility of change. After all, a Christian doesn’t share his beliefs because he thinks other people are unaware of them. I certainly understand the theology and practices of Christianity (better than some Christians), and I can’t imagine that there’s anyone in this country to whom a proselytizer would actually provide *new* information.
“Did you know that Jesus rose from the dead to atone for our sins?”
“Um, yes, I’d heard that.”
If you consider it an “attack” to have God referred to as “fictional” or “myth”, you must understand that as a non-Christian, I feel the same way when someone tells me unequivocally that there is One True God and Jesus was his son and if I want to hang with God, I’d best accept Jesus. It’s not what I believe, and by presenting it to me as truth, this hypothetical Christian is basically calling *my* beliefs fiction or myth.
Now, if this hypothetical Christian is going around telling people, “I believe that Jesus was the Son of God, but then again, no one can no for sure, and your beliefs are just as likely to be correct as mine,” that would be another thing.
As for teasing, let me just say that after 6 centuries of cracks about Jews being cheap, it’s about time that you guys get your fair share of ribbing. And if some jokes on the Daily Show and South Park are the worst that happens to Christians in this country, that’s pretty good. Christianity is hardly under attack — you can lay claim to all 43 Presidents (42, if you discount Jefferson) and pretty much every successful person this country has ever known. There’s no employment discrimination against Christians, no economic disadvantage related to Christianity.
OK, sleepy now. 🙂
— Ben
Debator..
Master Debator.
Visit the Official Justin Timpane Website Music, Acting, and More! http://www.timpane.com
Of course there’s always this..
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070104/ts_csm/catheist
Visit the Official Justin Timpane Website Music, Acting, and More! http://www.timpane.com
My New Year’s Resolution…
… is to no longer take offense at things. Seriously.
Sure, I’ll still work to change things I don’t like in society (by giving to charity, volunteering time, etc…), and I’ll still speak my mind on issues that matter to me, but I will do my damndest to never use the phrase “I take offense at that” or “That offends me.”
I am an actor, a role-player, a Christian (according to some), a democrat, male, white, and smart. All of these things will be mocked (however inadvertently) at least once during the coming year, I’m sure, frequently by people who are just speaking their minds.
News flash: everyone has opinions that will offend someone else, and they’ll have no idea WHY people find it offensive: “I don’t know why you’re taking offense at this, I’m just saying that I believe Christ rose from the dead.” “I don’t know why you’re taking offense at this, I just don’t believe in God.”
So there’s been a lot of talk lately about there being a “War on (fill in the blank.)” A War on Christmas. A War on Christianity. A War on Atheists.
I suppose, by that logic, I’m also a part of the War on Gamers (I mean, not every gamer is 42, 350 lbs, with a beard and no hygiene and living in his mom’s basement.) How about the War on Actors? (Why would you waste your life doing something so meaningless? Earn some money and provide for your family.)
With so many Wars going on, I’m realizing what a waste of energy it could be for me to defend every clan that I’m a part of.
So for this year, no taking offense, no rising unbidden to defend myself or my people. Just calmly going about being me and being happy with it.
Yeah, we’ll see how long this lasts…
What the hell are you thinking?!!
Just kidding.
Just to be clear.. I’m not patently offended.. I’m a pretty happy guy, as you know. I’m just responding to the idea that atheists are “live and let live” and Christians are not.
I’m just making the point that we are a lot more alike than we might think.
I guess the bottom line is, “that’s okay”. I LOVE thae Daily show.. and you know better than mostthat I’m hard to actually offend in real life (chicken strips, anyone?).
BUT – for the sake of debate, yeah, I’ll get a little spirited..
OH.. and D&D is satan worship.
Visit the Official Justin Timpane Website Music, Acting, and More! http://www.timpane.com
Alternatives
We live in diverse communities. As such, we must expect that those around us will have very different views of the world, their purpose in life, and their basis for morality. The question is, what do we do in that environment?
1) Spread our own views far and wide. Why? Because we know better than anyone who disagrees with us. It’s that simple. If they were smart (or good) enough to “get it” they would share our views, right? Those people who appear smart, yet still disagree, just haven’t been exposed to all the facts yet. Because it’s so obvious that we’re right!
2) Understand those around us. This requires admitting that we may not know better than everyone who disagrees with us. It also means that we don’t share our personal conclusions, unless we meet someone else seeking to understand. And then it’s with a good solid dose of “I believe” instead of “I know.”
Needless-to-say, because we (whoever we are) are certain that we are above average in intelligence and understanding of the world, the first option becomes the best way to improve the planet and the lives of those around us! Honestly, I don’t think it’s possible to have an organization (such as a church) push #2 without effectively dissolving itself. #1 is good at building membership and strength of opinions. The idea of a “chosen people” appears to be ubiquitous in cultures. (And, of course, cultures never seem to think that anyone else happens to be that chosen people!)
I believe that #2 is a good meme, but it is a self-destructive one in a society. I can try to live it myself though, and more importantly, share it with my kids. (And I’ll need your help, since I obviously don’t live it now!)
One does…
http://www.uua.org/
—
Matthew P. Barnson
I don’t see those two as
I don’t see those two as being necessarily mutually exclusive.
An organization can spread its ideas to others while at the same time constantly seeking to refine its own beliefs based on new discoveries.
Take AA or other 12 step programs. In many ways, these programs are very similar to religion. However, they’re still relatively new in the world, and are still being updated and revised. And the 12 steps aren’t presented to you as “This is the only way that you’ll ever escape alcohol/drugs/whatever,” but rather “This is what helped us, and it’s likely to help you.”
I think it’s faulty logic to assume that anyone who wants to spread their views far and wide thinks that they know better than anyone else. There’s a lot of discoveries that I’ve made in my own life that I share with my friends because it may well help them. But that doesn’t mean that I know any better. I’m just providing more options.
And yes, of course there are organizations that both spread their views and think they have the only handle on truth. I’m not disputing that, I just think your Venn diagram needs a few more circles, is all.