That PC I was talking about…

20 thoughts on “That PC I was talking about…”

1. Specifics…

   I wrote a big, long response, and realized it was far too long-winded to be pleasant reading. So here’s a summary of questions to ask:

   • What brand and model of system is this? Have you checked eBay for comparable systems to make sure you’re getting a deal in line with what you’d pay online? $700 for a five-year-old system is, IMHO, way too much no matter how cool it is.
   • How many CPU cores? I would not use a single-CPU system for a digital audio workstation (DAW) today, dual-cores or even better, quad-cores really make a huge difference in responsiveness.
   • What speed are the CPUs? What make and model? The fact is, the new “Core 2 Duo” CPUs at speeds of 2GHz+ really, really kick all kinds of ass due to their big L2 caches, low heat, and high performance per clock. AMD 64-bit Opteron CPUs work well, too.
   • What is the L2 cache size on the CPUs? This actually makes a HUGE difference when working with digital audio. A fat 1MB or 2MB L2 CPU cache means the CPU gets a lot more done in an individual cycle than a 256K or 512K cache. This would be my primary concern about an “older” system.
   • Is that “150GB” hard drive actually two 75GB hard drives in a RAID 0? If that is the case, they are “striped” together… you would be much better off with a higher-density drive with a larger onboard cache for the kind of work we do. You’re doing large sequential reads and writes, not a lot of random database-style I/O stuff when video/audio editing. RAID is nice, but if you compare a recent drive with a large cache to a RAID 0 of two 5-year-old drives, that modern drive is going to kick the ass of those older drives, no questions. (See: Hitachi’s “Get Perpendicular” video, the incredible data density gains of 2005-2007 had the side effect of phenomenally increasing hard drive performance for sequential reads/writes, too.)
   • What’s the video card? Does it have dual outputs? Dual monitors when working with Sonar is very, very nice… but once again, you need to fork out the cash for a new version of Sonar to take full advantage of dual monitors. NVidia cards have far fewer reliability and compatibility issues, in general, than ATI cards. And I wouldn’t consider anything other than NVidia or ATI for a DAW these days due to driver compatibility and performance.
   • What sort of monitor is included? CRT monitors have a pronounced whine which can be heard on recordings, and they also royally screw up the sound from mics if you accidentally put the mic in the blast zone in front of the monitor. LCD screens are usually silent. More resolution is better… I won’t work at anything less than 1600×1200 in Sonar now, because I use all that real estate. Or else run dual monitors, two 1280×1024 19″ monitors gives you a fairly generous space to work in, and they are quite cheap ($150 per screen these days).

   All that said… yeah, it would handle your needs just fine. It would probably rock, even. But why not take your $700, save an extra couple hundred up, and buy yourself a brand-new system that will perform better, run quieter and cooler, and suck less power than this “server” from 2003?

   The issues I have with using a “server” as a DAW:

   1. Noise. Unless you plan to put a wall between you and this box (which I will be doing in my studio, by the way), these boxes frequently run in the range of 70-80dB (or even 90-100dB for some of the servers in our facility at work). I’d plug it in… if it’s not whisper-quiet, you’re probably better off with a workstation rather than a “server-class” machine.
   2. Compatibility with PCI Express. PCI, PCI-X, and AGP are legacy technology and dead-end roads at this point.
   3. A single hard drive spindle consumes less power and produces less heat and noise than a RAID of several drives. For a DAW, I’d rather go with one large, fast drive than multiple drives in a RAID. This is specific to a computer which may be in a room where audio recording is going on; if it were a remote server, RAID is fine. Turn on a USB hard drive after every recording session and back up your work.
   4. Servers are bulky. For instance, here’s an example of a server from the 2002-2003 era we’re discussing, right around the same price we’re talking about. Yeah, it makes a fine DAW, if you don’t mind a screaming jet engine in your studio that consumes several cubic feet of space. The space issue can be worked around, but it’s still a big unit that is already obsolete.
   5. Core 2 Duo really is all that. A multi-CPU system from five years ago does not compare well in I/O performance to a Core 2 Duo or AMD Opteron X2. Newer server-class machines are finally getting this technology, and the I/O performance boost because the multi-core CPU chips share memory more efficiently is HUGE. “Hyper-threading” can give you some performance and responsiveness gains… but it’s not the same thing as a real multi-core system.
   6. SCSI hard drives are far more expensive (roughly 4X the price) than their SATA or IDE counterparts, and the reliability difference is zero, nada, nil. Anybody who tells you differently is LYING TO YOU. Period. Trust me on this one, I work in a data center with nearly 10,000 machines, and our data-mining corroborates with what Google released last year: IDE, SCSI, and SATA have zero reliability difference. Now, SCSI handles large chains of lots of hard drives much more efficiently and faster than IDE or SATA, so that’s a strong consideration in a large data warehouse like mine. But there is no reliability difference between SCSI and SATA/IDE. Why pay more for your hard drive upgrades? If you only have two drives anyway, SATA works just as well. Any configuration for home use of five drives or less, I’d find a way to do via SATA rather than SCSI.
   7. Power management. I have not found a server yet with power management comparable to desktops. Many servers are designed to run at around 1000-1200 watts. Most desktops are designed to run around 250-400 watts. Let’s do the math: at 8c per Kw/H, assuming it’s running 24/7 for a year, that server costs you around $700/year in power just to run it. The desktop costs you around $280. If the system is set up to take advantage of low-power states (around 3-5 watts), that cost is reduced dramatically. I have never seen a server which can get its power consumption down to the levels that a workstation can when in “sleep” mode. “Hibernate” is even better (0 watts), but it takes longer to wake the computer up.

   OK, sorry, that was still far longer than I wanted. My advice is, turn the box on and hear how loud it is. If it’s above whisper-quiet, pass and try to build yourself or buy yourself a quieter machine in the desktop class. A modern desktop will give you better, quieter, cheaper performance than that old server, and often in a similar price range. The advances of the past 2-3 years have been tremendous in improving PC performance, reducing power consumption, and reducing noise and heat.

   —
   Matthew P. Barnson

   1. ::blink blink::

      Wow dude… I’d hate to see what the LONG response was. 🙂

      1. Short on time…

         My trouble is, to make a post very compact takes a lot longer than just writing stream-of-consciousness. I’m a bit short on time today, otherwise I think I could have shrunk that down by about 50%…

         —
         Matthew P. Barnson

   2. My two cents

      I’m inclined to agree with Matthew on this, for a couple reasons.

      First, Core 2 Duo is, as said above, really and truly all that.

      More importantly, though, while a server is very similar to a workstation in many ways, it’s also very different. My prediction is that you’re going into run into a lot more questions and uncharted territory with that server unit, even after you get it up and running. It will be more expensive and more difficult to maintain… and if you put a dollar value on the time you’d spend dealing with it as opposed to using it to video edit, you’ll probably end up saving money in the long run going with a new workstation instead.

      My very quick layman’s recommendation on a video editing workstation would be to get

      — a new Core 2 Duo desktop (not laptop), with at least 2GHZ of processing speed. Again, it’s all that.

      — It MUST have a PCI Express graphics card slot (note, not PCI, PCI Express, just about all new graphics cards are made in this format now)

      — Multiple RAM memory expansion slots, ideally 4 (3 minimum). The key thing here is that you don’t need to start with tons of memory. You could get away with 2GB, or even 1 (though that would be pushing it.) The important thing is that if you realize it’s still slow, you would then have the option to expand.

      — Even if it has Vista, that ain’t the end of the world. If Vista slows it down, you can always just reformat it with XP, especially if you’ve got an external HD to backup your data to.

      1. Vista compatibility issues with a DAW…

         Vista is not yet a good option for a digital audio workstation. The plugin engines are broken for half a dozen common plugins (jitter and hiccups are the most common symptom, which often kill the sound engine entirely and require a reboot), and the driver support is wonky unless you are using consumer-level cards. I’d give it another year to settle out and some of the high-end PCI Express audio cards stabilize their XP drivers.

         That said, I think Vista is fine for 99% of consumers and gamers, as long as they can get at least 2-3GB of RAM into their machine. But for the “prosumer” A/V editing crowd, it’s just not stable enough yet. I know a number of fellows who still use Windows 2000 or Windows NT 4.0 for their DAW or A/V workstation because things are so stable and they are totally disconnected from any network and risk of intrusion other than physical attacks. That’s one of the reasons I want to move to Linux for my DAW; I can settle on a configuration that I know will continue to work well for many years and be supported indefinitely.

         So that’s another tip: keep your DAW disconnected from your network once you have it stable. Man, it makes such a difference to stability if you don’t have to worry about Internet security threats or routine software “updates” that break your drivers again.

         When building my DAW, if I were using Windows, I would just go buy a copy of Windows XP and reformat right after receiving it.

         —
         Matthew P. Barnson

      2. My friend’s reply

         So problem dude. I totally understand your apprehension, which is why I also looked at workstations and did say that you could get into an entry level one for around 1200. These guys are exactly right in everything they are saying. The server is loud, it takes a lot of power, and is really big. Regarding reliability – there are redundant power supplies, hot swappable hard drives and other things that make for a more reliable system in general. I definetly am not saying that the drives themselves are more robust. But it is pretty trivial to build a new pc with a similar RAID array of SATA drives that is much larger. My HTPC has a RAID array, but keep in mind I recently lost ALL of the data on those drives due to a Windows update, so they are accurate in their suggestion of leaving it off the network and not updating things. To make a long story short, you probably will be happier with building/buying a new pc, I was just throwing it out there that I do have this system available. If built to my suggestions, it is: Dual Xeon 2.4 G, 512M 533Mhz FSB 2.5GB PC2100 RAID 1 15K Cheetah 18GB main drives RAID 5 10K SCSI 320 32GB each data drives Audio and Video cards would need to be purchased, so they could be whatever

         SOO.. With all that being said.. this system for 700 vs.. what do you think I could get for 500 more?

         Visit the Official Justin Timpane Website Music, Acting, and More! http://www.timpane.com

         1. He sent me…

            Justin sent me the specs from the system he actually bought. Woot 🙂

            — Dell Inspiron 530 — — Intel Core 2 Quad Processor Q6600 (8MB L2 cache,2.4GHz,1066FSB) — [223-5256] ———————– — Memory — — 3GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz – 4 DIMMs — [311-7749] ———————– — Keyboard and Mouse Bundles — — Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse — [310-7966] — [310-8025] ———————– — Monitor — — 22 inch Samsung 2220WM Widescreen Analog/Digital Black LCD Monitor — [320-5615] — [A1286940] ———————– — Video Cards — — 256MB Radeon ATI HD 2600 XT — [320-6181] ———————– — Hard Drives — — 500GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache蒂 — [341-4811] ———————– — Floppy Drive and Media Reader — — No Floppy Drive Included — [341-5008] ———————– — Operating System — — Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium – English — [313-5582] — [420-5769] — [420-5924] — [420-6436] — [420-6540] — [420-7622] — [463-2282] ———————– — Mouse — — Mouse included with Keyboard purchase — [310-1966] ———————– — Network Interface — — Integrated 10/100 Ethernet — [430-0412] ———————– — Modem and Wireless — — 56K PCI Data Fax Modem — [313-4593] ———————– — Adobe Software — — Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 8.1 — [420-7468] ———————– — Optical Drive — — 16X DVD+/-RW Drive — [313-5270] — [420-6464] ———————– — Sound Cards — — Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio — [313-2758] ———————– — Speakers — — No speakers (Speakers are required to hear audio from your system) — [313-2198] ———————– — Office Productivity Software (Pre-Installed) — — No Productivity software pre-installed — [412-1397] ———————– — Security Software — — No Subscription (only 30-day protection) — [420-7701] ———————– — Warranty & Service — — 2Yr In-Home Service, Parts + Labor, 24×7 Phone Support — [412-0360] — [950-3338] — [960-2891] — [960-7511] — [982-4310] — [983-3680] — [987-3108] — [987-3137] ———————– — Internet Access Service — — 6 Months Risk-Free Trial AOL Advantage Internet Access — [412-0933] — [412-0934] — [412-0935] ———————– — Optional Ports — — IEEE 1394a Adapter — [310-9425] ———————– — Dell Digital Entertainment — — No Entertainment software pre-installed — [464-9572] ———————– — Labels — — Windows Vista蒂 Premium — [310-8626] ———————– — DataSafe Online Backup — — Included 3 GB DataSafe Online Backup for 1Yr — [420-7091] — [420-7092] — [987-4817] — [988-0099] ———————–

            — Dell Home Customers: Save $500 off this Inspiron Desktop – $500.00

            Subtotal: $1,169.00 IVA: $58.45 Shipping and Handling: $29.99

            Import Fee: —

            Shipping Discount: -$29.99

            Total: $1,227.45

            Things I wish could fit in: * A system with more slots for a good PCI or PCI-X prosumer sound card. * Higher resolution on the monitor (WUXGA (1900×1200) or higher is NICE!) * 3 year warranty instead of 2 * Integrated wireless, for those rare times I’d turn it on when I needed to download something from the Internet. * A second monitor. Just like the first one 🙂 * 4GB or more of RAM. Dell seems extremely proud of their RAM ($300+ for 4GB upgrades), when I can pick up 4GB for under $100 from Newegg…

            Other than that, great choice. The lack of expansion options is a slight concern because between the upgraded video card and Firewire card, there are no more ports on the system. Oh, well, expand via Firewire or USB I guess. Anyway, I’m stoked to hear Justin’s report on his new rig once he gets it set up!

            —
            Matthew P. Barnson

2. What About This One?

   Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition Service Pack 2 Compaq SR1120NX GenuineIntel ~2666 Mhz Total Physical Memory 1,024.00 MB Available Physical Memory 33.71 MB

   These are the specs for my current system. Compaq just told me that there’s nothing I can do to enhance the RAM or the processor. They just wanted to send me over to customer services. My machine has been sooooo slow (as I’ve previously noted) since upping to Office 2007. I guess this thing now registers as a dinosaur?

   The major drawback in getting a new cpu is the hours upon hours spent loading your software into the new system…

   1. Dead-end dinosaur

      Yeah, it’s a dead-end dinosaur of a machine. Expandability was always poor on that model.

      I agree it’s a pain to load software on the new box. My son, in fact, has logged far more hours on my new Inspiron 9400 than I have! His hours have all been just playing a game.

      The next DAW system I want to build (maybe some time this summer?) will have the following minimum specs: * Four CPUs (either a single quad-core or two dual-core processors). Octo-core would be even better 🙂 * Min 4GB of RAM, all of it addressable (some motherboards allow you to put in 4GB, but only “see” 3.25GB or so. Limitation of the chipset, not the operating system.) * 64-bit operating system (either MacOSX or Linux, probably) * 500GB HDD (or more) * Firewire and USB * LCD screen of at least 1600×1200 resolution * Multi-channel audio inputs (not sure what brand of “prosumer” card I want yet, but I want to be able to do at least 4 inputs at once… I might cobble a solution together from low-end consumer cards though.) * Dedicated off-board mixer, minimum 6 channels, either Firewire or USB

      I’ve decided that laptops, despite their convenience, are just balls as a DAW. Too many incompatibilities, too much proprietary hardware. They are great when you’re on the road, but when I’m sitting in-studio, I want a reliable system that can do everything I throw at it, and I want to spend about a thousand bucks on it.

      —
      Matthew P. Barnson

3. Getting A Laptop – need advice

   Gents,

   I survived temptation last night. I made it out of Microcenter without spending any money. I am a reformed tech enthusiast. 🙂

   I’m getting a laptop because I’m finally sick of being tethered to a physical workstation for computing needs. Also, MPLS just got wi-fi full and I’m ready to start my 6MB/sec download (likely 50KB/sec) anywhere I’m in the city (both home and office are in the city limits).

   The three listed below are not necessarily my favorites, but just the ones on display last night in the store that meed my needs. These go from least to most expensive. You will notice they are all XP Pro machines. I’m for XP Pro, mainly because I’m software-invested and getting Vista would require expensive software upgrades. Also, I don’t see the real need to upgrade to Vista as XP Pro SP2 works just fine. At one point, Matt had mentioned going with Linux and Ubuntu, but I’m not so sure I’m capable of maintaining and running that OS without outside support.

   Lenovo 3000 N Series — http://tinyurl.com/ytduzb Compaq Presario V6741US — http://tinyurl.com/3cafns Sony Vaio — http://tinyurl.com/3xpb3h

   Thanks for any advice!!!

   1. First thoughts…

      Contrary to my usual tendency, I’ll be brief, having worked on various models of each of these laptops.

      Lenovo: These laptops are very reliable with good support. Compaq: Run away. Run far away. Run even faster. Sony Vaio: Great machine, good support, but expensive for what you get. You are also supporting a company that has done very evil things to recording artists and consumers within the past five years. IBM/Lenovo is less evil.

      I’d go Lenovo if those were my three choices… but I’d actually prefer to find some great coupons for a Dell laptop, get the 3-year warranty and accident protection, and call it good for maybe $1200-$1600.

      —
      Matthew P. Barnson

   2. The Final – Inspiron 1520

      Just in case anybody cares (and for future reference, of course)…

      Dell Inspiron 1520, XP Pro, Intel Core 2 Duo T7500 (2.2ghz/800mhz/4MBcache), 2GB RAM, 15.4”, 120GB SATA (7200RPM), 1 firewire drive, 4 usb ports, integrated 2.0MB cam, HD audio, 9cell 85W lithium battery, internal wireless card, no Bluetooth internal.

      $1,258 includes shipping and tax, and the $400 discount coupon.

      This doesn’t include the 2GB of RAM sticks I’m going to buy after-market.

      This doesn’t include the 16 hours of work installing software and configuring.

      1. Firewire…

         When you say “firewire drive” you really mean “firewire port”, right? I didn’t know the 1520 carried a Firewire port, I thought that was reserved for the 17-inch line. Learn something new every day 🙂

         Like I mentioned in email, though, Dell uses a Ricoh chipset for their Firewire interface, which is known to have some issues with Firewire audio/video devices (most other laptops use the same chipset). The Belkin Firewire ExpressCard has a Texas Instruments chipset, and works well with all kinds of devices that the Ricoh doesn’t.

         I’ve heard that a Dell driver update fixes some of the Ricoh problems… I’ll have to see if it does that for my M-Audio gear that’s useless with the Dell firewire interface.

         —
         Matthew P. Barnson

      2. What about support?

         Did the $1258 include any support? Laptop hard drives will fail more often than desktop ones.

         I agree with Matt that I’d buy from Dell first and foremost. Their support is what raises them above the others, even if you have to go through a third-world country to get it. If you do buy from Dell, I’d recommend setting up a small business account with them. That gets you somewhat better support than they give the masses as well as I bet they’d throw in a sweet deal to get you on as a customer, even if you may buy a machine a year.

         And when going with Dell, my company always buys Latitudes. It doesn’t have some of the entertainment frills (HD audio, integrated cam, firewire), but they come standard with 3 years support and they DON’T have a lot of the fluff Inspiron’s seem to come with you have to uninstall. A laptop configured with your above specs (minus the HD audio and cam, firewire, plus a DVD+-RW and single 2 GB chip for future upgrading) is similarly priced without any coupons applied. I’d recommend getting a docking station if you plan to attach a keyboard, mouse, monitor, and/or any other peripherals to it. It’s a small convenience to be able to just plop your laptop into/out of the docking station instead of having to plug/unplug everything, and may not justify the extra $130, BUT it gets you a second power cord, so you don’t have to buy one for travel.

         Also Dell has come out with the Vostro line specially tailored to small businesses like yours. You should explore them as well. The Inspiron line is for home users and just comes with too much junk preinstalled on it for me.

         My $.02 Weed

         1. Yes, includes support

            Forgot to mention! Include 2-year support and parts.

         2. Vostro vs. Inspiron

            Vostro: Docking station port on the bottom. Small-business support (generally superior to Home tech support) Lower prices due to lower-end configuration availability (Celerons and AMD Turion)

            Inspiron: Color choices “subwoofer” (certain models) which really enhances the sound from the laptop speakers More graphics card choices (not a factor in Sammy’s purchase) Higher-end processors (AMD x64 and Intel Core 2 Duo only, higher GHz)

            The Vostro and Inspiron are functionally identical otherwise, down to identical motherboards (the docking port on the Inspiron is stubbed in and has chips to support it, but not the connector and the port in the bottom is covered) and magnesium alloy cases. The Inspiron just has a plastic cover (the replaceable color skin) on the back of the screen.

            They got rid of DVI port on most of their laptops except the XPS line. I was really disappointed in this change, as there’s a huge difference between a DVI-connected LCD and VGA-connected LCD.

            Anyway, so the choice of Vostro vs. Inspiron, IMHO, boils down to: * Do you want anything other than black? Inspiron. * Do you want a docking port? Vostro. * Do you want premiere support? Vostro. * Do you want high-end graphics? Either one. * Do you want high-end CPUs? Either one, but the Inspiron generally has killer coupons/discounts on their higher-end laptops that the Vostro can’t match. * Do you want to spend as little as possible on a laptop? Vostro wins, they come in really low-end configurations to win the price war for $500 laptops. * Do you want a bare-bones operating system config by default? Vostro. Inspirons do come loaded with a good deal of crap-ware you have to uninstall.

            —
            Matthew P. Barnson

      3. “4GB of RAM sticks I’m going to buy after-market”

         What up dogs. This laptop is hella sweet. Triple woot latte.

         Per above, as part of the purchase, I intentionally got 2MB RAM (instead of the max 4) so I could upgrade after receipt and avoid the price gouging that occurs when you buy full through the OEM (in this case, Dell). Matt, previously you had concurred with this line of thinking and offered a specific online merchant that sources real goods, cheap. Can you offer again, or provide broader advice on RAM sources? I need 2 sticks of 2GB RAM each, DDR2 SDRAM (667 mhz), 4 total.

         –Dell Inspiron 1520 comes installed with 2 sticks of 1GBRAM, each DDR2 SDRAM, 667 mhz –Dell tech support informed me that I can’t go to 800 mhz because of compatibility issues –Dell upgrade purchase option, 2 sticks of 2GB RAM (667 mhz), $160 total

         The $160 offer from Dell is outright laughable although I give props to the guy from India on Dell tech support who spent time researching the offer and delivered with a sense of duty.

         Appreciation given in advance for any help.

         1. 4GB

            Here’s what I’d buy if I were looking to expand my memory to 4GB: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231147

            (Note: listing will expire in a few weeks/months/years, so eventually it will be a 404… Newegg pretty consistently has at or near the lowest RAM prices around, though.)

            G-Skill RAM, while it seems to be “no-name”, doesn’t suck. It’s reliably marked at its actual speed and capacity, and I’ve never had a problem with it. Newegg has a DOA warranty and their support has always been good to me.

            Cost of two 2GB sticks as of this writing: $68, plus shipping. Nobody is making 4GB sticks yet for laptops, which is sad because the Santa Rosa chipset in the latest Intel-based laptops could handle it.

            You can also check http://www.PriceWatch.com if you really are going for the absolute rock-bottom price. The downside? I’ve bought RAM from vendors who were out of business the day after my RAM shipped…

            All that said… are you sure you need 4GB right now? The price will continue dropping, and truth be told I’m perfectly satisfied with my 2GB as a power-user. Then again, I run XP, not Vista, and I’m told that Vista really needs a minimum of 2GB to run well.

            And if I recall correctly, the 1520 comes with two memory slots for RAM, not four. So you have to replace the RAM… not add to it.

            If you want to throw out your old RAM after buying new, ship it my way, would ya? My mom just bought a Mac laptop which takes the same sort of RAM (DDR2 667MHz), and it’s only shipping with 1GB. A 2GB upgrade makes things just perfect on Mac…

            —
            Matthew P. Barnson

            1. Done

               I knew. I newegged. Thanks for the link. Excellent info.

               Yes, of course, I need 4GB of RAM. Who doesn’t need more RAM? Anybody on this blog who doesn’t want more RAM is getting a wedgie immediately. Don’t ever question my RAMness again.

               Once the 2 new sticks have been successfully installed, the old RAM will be shipped your way. Let me know if you want the extra stick, or both sticks?

            2. It’s 2 sticks

               What’s coming in her mac is 2 sticks of 512MB, so if you’re getting rid of your old 2GB setup, both would be great!

               Now in the grand tradition of paying it forward, does anybody need two 512MB 667MHz DDR2 RAM sticks? I also have two 256MB of the same, but I assume that’s far too small to be of interest to anybody…

               —
               Matthew P. Barnson

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